Oh man, Christmas is so pagan

[Angeleyes]

Don't tell my family that though!!

I've spent these last few months trying to reconcile different religions without feeling complacent in any one religion. I've been very grounded in the Seth books in that they resonate with me very deeply and make sense of thoughts and notions I've had for years and never put into words or was able to fully understand. Not that I fully understand it all now, but anyway...

I decided after a lot of reading that Christmas might even be more pagan than Christian, and with the holiday becoming more and more secularized, I really wanted to go back to its roots and find some solace in the solstice that way. The lore of the two religions is a true parallel and very symbolic (at least that's always how I've approached Christian Christmas- Catholics are very contextual in their teachings). Historians place Jesus' birth around springtime anyway but I suppose that's a moot point and pretty irrelevant except to the born-again's who take everything as literal fact and will argue it tooth and nail.
I should also say, I still call myself a Christian and especially after reading some interesting things while re-reading the Seth material (and other things) and I can really appreciate the religion as part of my identity. I just feel like that's not ALL there is for me and I'm complacent without the Buddhism, the Spiritualism, the Esoteric...-ism and the Wiccan beliefs. I think that's all fine on the former ends but not so much on the Christian end. Then again I'm in a pretty liberal area and even the hardcore bible-thumping Christians still treat you like a person (where it's not always the case in the deep south and especially online as I've found).
Anyhoo, I love Christmas but I've also been celebrating the sabots (or any other variation of the spelling) and I've acknowledged Yule (without realizing what it was) for as long as I can remember.

That said, I now know that in celebrating Christmas I'm celebrating Yule just the same.
Somehow, this makes winter so much more enjoyable for someone who does not enjoy being cold or in 10+ hours of dark (makes sense, I'm a Pisces). I've been able to enjoy winter for what it is and for the first time in a long time, really appreciate its quiet beauty. I've been able to enjoy hot chocolate and be cozy in front of a warm fire and appreciate how brightly the moon shines in the crisp air. On a side note, the moon was closer to the earth the other night than it had been in years which may have explained the success of our session the other night but that's another story for another day.

Of course, I'm still already anticipating Spring, which I suppose is a large part of how pagans (rebirth of the seasons) and Christians (Catholic new year, birth of Christ) alike celebrate anyway. I suppose that's a bit ironic considering they're supposed to be opposing religions?

[alchemistic]

Hey lady, long time no see!
It’s nice to have you back…
And when you come back, you come back with a great post!

It makes me wonder many things, since I don’t identify with any “religion”

Does what anyone feels spiritually have to be labeled?
We are spiritual beings, and it is important to have our spirituality
Can we simply be “beings” that love and feel “all” facets of spirituality?
(i.e…A Christ, Buddha, Mohamed, Ala and etc…)

Dose what one feels (in their soul, heart, being and etc…) need to be expressed through identifying with a group, a certain selected religion or cult?

I’ve really never understood it

[bee]

i agree with alchy, great to hear from you!!

Dose what one feels (in their soul, heart, being and etc…) need to be expressed through identifying with a group, a certain selected religion or cult?

heh-heh. you knew i'd bite didn't you!

actually i'd say it's inescapable to a degree. those who don't identifying with a given religion, identify with others who don't. i'd be willing to bet that given a century or two, those who currently preferring to be termed 'spiritual' as opposed to 'religious', will be grouped under and viewed as another religious movement. there are many commonly shared traits and beliefs, enough to be placed (despite the inevitable protests) under the heading (or label) 'religion'

I’ve really never understood it

(with luv and hugs to you alchy) ok-a-ay...so why this site? why share experiences? why share anything full stop? because we learn and grow from each other and naturally we initially identify with those who hold similar (though not always identical) beliefs

what's more important than if you label yourself buddhist, xtain, spiritual, athiest or space cowboy though is how deeply, honestly, courageously and sometimes painfully one explores ones beliefs and then how one puts them into practice. without that, it really is just labels.

right...i need sleep, though i reeeaally want to reply to the ouija thread. you're all safe.....for now! (mwa-ha-ha-ha!!)

[alchemistic]

heh-heh. you knew i'd bite didn't you!

hehe

I was being quite literal thou…
Meaning, I don’t “get” or understand “organized” religions.

I understand what you’re saying bee, to a certain extent.
But I disagree some too….

I share what I feel and believe (i.e. this forum), but not so that I feel I belong to any group, or so that I feel I am a part of something, for spirituality sake.
More for expanding my mind in “every area”

those who don't identifying with a given religion, identify with others who don't. i'd be willing to bet that given a century or two, those who currently preferring to be termed 'spiritual' as opposed to 'religious', will be grouped under and viewed as another religious movement. there are many commonly shared traits and beliefs, enough to be placed (despite the inevitable protests) under the heading (or label) 'religion'

That’s just it thou, I don’t believe that everyone who is spiritual would want to be identified with anyone else as such.
More like the Native Americans as an example. There is no label, there isn’t an idea that “we’re one in our spirituality”, it’s more that “I” am at one with my own spirituality. I am one with nature sort of thing…lol…see, it’s very hard for me to describe.

My spirituality (and for lack of a different way to put it) is so personal, that often times I leave out a lot when speaking about it with someone. I feel there is no need to delve into it. Or that it's such a deep interpersonal thing, I don't bring it all to the front...there is no need to
I rumble around ideas about different theories, ideas and beliefs with people, but not everything can or needs to be explained so I don’t even try…

The fact that I make connections with people is secondary (or tertiary).
They can have their own beliefs and I’ll listen to them even thou they may not resonate with my own…I share because I believe that we all learn from one another. I like learning about everything…baring stuff that I have already heard about and do not resonate with.

[bee]

But I disagree some too….

how dare you!! lol

That’s just it thou, I don’t believe that everyone who is spiritual would want to be identified with anyone else as such.

sure, and i doubt a quaker would want to be associated with an orthodox...they are poles, no..make that veritable miles apart. yet at the same time they can both be viewed as christian.
i do see the angle your coming from but essentially i think we come up against a paradox - we are all totally unique and we are all exactly the same. the two may seem to contradict each other but i think in a lot of ways they both hold truth.

My spirituality (and for lack of a different way to put it) is so personal, that often times I leave out a lot when speaking about it with someone. I feel there is no need to delve into it. Or that it's such a deep interpersonal thing, I don't bring it all to the front...there is no need to
I rumble around ideas about different theories, ideas and beliefs with people, but not everything can or needs to be explained so I don’t even try…

okay, i getcha....and i think many people belonging to religous traditions would feel exactly the same way.

i guess maybe...celibrate the similarities and the differences, howzat?

[alchemistic]

how dare you!! lol

lol...ok, last bit from me

I agree we all need "community". But, it can be an art community, gardening, poetry and what have ya...
What I am not understanding is, why people feel they need to choose a "religion". Why people are so religified....

Understand, the majority of humans on this earth have chosen a religion (or they feel it chose them) either way, most everyone is a part of some kind of religion...and I don't think I'll ever understand why (meaning, I guess I'll never fully understand people...but, I don't really "need" to )

sure, and i doubt a quaker would want to be associated with an orthodox...they are poles, no..make that veritable miles apart. yet at the same time they can both be viewed as christian.
i do see the angle your coming from but essentially i think we come up against a paradox - we are all totally unique and we are all exactly the same. the two may seem to contradict each other but i think in a lot of ways they both hold truth.

Let's get even more basic then that shall we! lol

When I said, "I don’t believe that everyone who is spiritual would want to be identified with anyone else as such.
I meant that "not everyone" (meaning people like me) wants to be identified with any "one" type spirituality or religion...
To not have to choose or to not have to decide on any "one", believing "I" am what I am and that's it...period
Not that I am unique, or not unique...I just "am"
So, we agree on that and know what that means...
But, I don't believe that other people see it that way. They believe they are right and others are wrong (ergo, then wars are started and etc...)

So, I guess what I'm asking is, why does the vast majority feel the need to belong to a religion or cult?

It seems it's human nature to want to put people into categories and or label them....it isn't always about religion either, it could be race, sexual orientation, whether they wear glasses and etc...people seem to want to have to label

I think it's what keeps people separate (religion, race, sexual orientation, belonging to this group or that...)
People feeling they "should" choose this or that or be this way or that...and I fail to understand why religions, which are suppose to bring people closer together, divide people further apart then any thing else

lol...too much to wonder and I don't want to get this off topic..."Christmas is so pagan"

See what you've done Ange!

[serpentlux]

So, I guess what I'm asking is, why does the vast majority feel the need to belong to a religion or cult?

I don't know about other people, but I've never felt a need to belong to a religion, so to speak, but I know what my spirit desires, and it's always looking for things to enlighten it, to connect with a Higher power of some sort. I guess I would just consider myself to be a highly spiritual person. I do feel a literal need to be connected to God and Jesus-- interestingly, though, I feel that same need to be connected to-- well-- El Diablo. I don't know how to explain my spiritual needs or why I have them. Some of us just feel a "pulling" I suppose. Perhaps it's that these entities are pulling at us . . .

I fail to understand why religions, which are suppose to bring people closer together, divide people further apart then any thing else

Exactly. Unfortunately, that's exactly how it is. On Christianity, well, I wish more Christians could be like Jesus-- he was accepting of ALL people, no matter what. Just look at his disciples-- do a closer study if need be. Jesus was friends with everybody. Unfortunately, today, there are so many so-called "Christians" (who are supposed to be followers of Christ) who put the whole Christian body to shame. Bleh.

[Ildi]

Dose what one feels (in their soul, heart, being and etc…) need to be expressed through identifying with a group, a certain selected religion or cult?

Alchie, I think that for some yes, and others no. It's all up to individual preference. Most people feel the need to connect with those who have similar beliefs. For some it's enough to share their thoughts and experiences like we do, and for others more is needed, to belong in a permanent group with a leader who sort of tells them what to do, or keep them in line - according to the Bible for example. There are many people who only feel comfortable if they walk a well walked path, obeying a set of rules. I don't understand them either because I think so differently, but at the same time I do, I understand how for a certain type of person it would be important to have a script by which to live his/her life. Think about the military, the mercenary soldiers: I could never understand why would anyone want to throw away their free will and follow orders, and for some that's the way to go, the life to live. For many it's easier to live if someone else makes the rules and keeps making the decisions. And when they are grouped together they have the support of the others, and it validates and reinforces their beliefs.
And then there are those who'll not follow anyone but themselves, and you'll find those people right here on this forum. We prefer to discover our own spirituality, to walk our own path, to develop our own beliefs, and yet, here we are grouped together, sharing our stories, supporting each other in our "weirdness". We feel and know we are different from the average person, and we take comfort and enjoyment in communicating with likeminded people.
So to me it seems that the belonging, the grouping of likeminded people is a very human trait, and the need to be with people with similar beliefs - who can reinforce one's own - can be very strong.

[bee]

aah man, i don't know...maybe i'm just reading what you peeps are trying to get at all wrong? perhaps it's just a case that other peeps experiences of religion are different to mine? i dunno.

because following rules isn't part of my religion, following advice which i've experienced to be beneficial on the other hand...yes.

following a leader - no. listening to and following the advice of someone who's walked the path longer than i have and whose example shows them to be better skilled than i am - yes.

Exactly. Unfortunately, that's exactly how it is. On Christianity, well, I wish more Christians could be like Jesus-- he was accepting of ALL people, no matter what. Just look at his disciples-- do a closer study if need be. Jesus was friends with everybody. Unfortunately, today, there are so many so-called "Christians" (who are supposed to be followers of Christ) who put the whole Christian body to shame. Bleh.

that's it! it comes back to the most important thing being honestly examining ones beliefs and exploring them and then putting them into practice and living by them.

i can get why peeps might feel religion is all about submission to some heirarchical (and frequently patriarchal) supposed authority but i would then say one needs to expand ones view...consider the quakers, sufis, yogins etc.
religion need not always be equated or judged as mainstream xtainity. doing so, i could definitely see how one would be led to see religion as nothing other than a limiting, submission-enducing creed

is that the time? back to work for me!

[serpentlux]

that's it! it comes back to the most important thing being honestly examining ones beliefs and exploring them and then putting them into practice and living by them.

i can get why peeps might feel religion is all about submission to some heirarchical (and frequently patriarchal) supposed authority but i would then say one needs to expand ones view...consider the quakers, sufis, yogins etc.
religion need not always be equated or judged as mainstream xtainity. doing so, i could definitely see how one would be led to see religion as nothing other than a limiting, submission-enducing creed

Right on. Well done.

because following rules isn't part of my religion, following advice which i've experienced to be beneficial on the other hand...yes.

Yes-- that's exactly the way it is for me too, and I'm sure many others. I think if the opposite were the case, then that "religion" would actually (probably) be considered a cult.